Disclaimer: this transcript was mechanically transcribed and the author has done her best to make certain grammatical corrections and ensure that it makes sense.  The true version is in the video. What follows below is slightly modified to help the reader make sense of the content. Please respect that spoken language often transcribes with confusion and some doubling up. Regardless, enjoy.

The conversation is between Kerry Bailey and Amanda Dounis. 

Who says what, is not important for the purpose of the transcript and so this has been left out.  Interested readers are more concerned with the content.  I hope you enjoy the read.

Alternatively just watch the you tube for a different experience.

Here it is:

Well hello and a warm welcome to today’s listeners. Allow me to introduce myself as the host of Today’s episode. My name is Amanda Dounis. I am the founder of the positive thinking clinic located in Wolli Creek Sydney. 

Here are the positive thinking clinic, I see clients of all ages. I see individuals couples families and small groups. I conduct psychotherapy and I use a variety of modalities delivered through counselling techniques and hypnotherapy. 

I’m a professional counsellor, clinical hypnotherapist, strategic psychotherapist, early childhood teacher, and MLP master practitioner. 

To learn more about what I do and what I offer, visit my website on www.positivethinkingclinic.com.au. The easiest way to connect with me on social media is to search my name Amanda Dounis or my clinic name Positive thinking clinic. 

You may also access my social media at the bottom of my website. I’m the author of my coping skills handbook aimed at kids aged 8 through to 14 years of age and I’ve also turned this into an online course. 

I have a range of podcasts that can be found on Amandadounis.podbean.com 

In addition to the Positive Thinking Clinic, I am the owner of four early learning centers. I’m passionate about quality care and emotional wellness of all ages. I believe we set the foundation for emotional wellness from a very young age. My early learning centers are licensed as Positive Living Skills services. 

I also have an emotional wellness & kids group on Facebook. One of my greatest hobbies is that I think I’m always involved in a variety of courses no matter how small. I enjoy adding to my skill set as an integrated therapist. 

I learn diverse skills and I select the best fit for any situation. If you wonder if I have any other hobbies I’m also into fitness. I’ve run a number of marathons including two ultra marathons. So that’s me in a nutshell. 

If you wanted to get in touch you can use the contact form on my website.


I would love to hear from you signing out and moving forward. 

You’re listening to Amanda Dounis.

Today we welcome Kerry.

Kerry is from Sydneyhypno.com.au. Kerry’s clinic is located in the inner west of Sydney in Marrickville. She conducts face to face and video based therapy sessions and coaching. She is a senior therapist coach and trainer. She is a clinical hypnotherapist strategic psychotherapist an NLP coach and trainer: very skilled.

You can engage with Kerry on her social media Facebook and LinkedIn. She’s very responsive. Kerry has conducted compassionate fatigue workshops, family dynamics, workplace and team dynamics, and other various workshops. 

She’s very passionate Kerry is passionate for the care of animals and people and has been from an early age.

She says I have had parents who modelled care and compassion for all. So I will always focus on what is the best outcome for all. Just like my parents she says I  should do this… as she goes through life. Her motto is to live a life of integrity. Kerry has a background in A.P. going back over 30 years and she has worked in small business and in corporate for over 20 years.

She has been involved in a variety of different activities, and sporting events over the years. She’s got quite a résumé. She’s passionate for animal welfare. She has volunteered for over 35 years. Amazing.

Kerry says I love my family and my friends and I feel blessed to be a part of such wonderful people and working in the field that I love. Kerry studied at IAP the Institute of Applied Psychology. From there she entered into the arena of human welfare.

After having for so many years worked in animal welfare and she wanted to help her colleagues cope with pressures and frustrations that they face. 

Kerry says I have found so much more now being able to help so many people in so many other walks of life. Amazing. Kerry has recently joined the faculty of her college I.A.P So that she can help others to follow the path that she loves so much. She says she sees her future as a continuance of the work that she does right now and that future is open to so many possibilities. 

KERRY Absolutely loves what she does, if you want to get in contact with her, visit her Web site. There are so many ways to connect with Kerry.


 So now we’re going to welcome Kerry Bailey and welcome Kerry. Thank you for joining us today. 

Thank you for having me. 

So today’s episode is going to be about the drama cycle. Now you and I are both psychotherapists and we specialize in hypnotherapy.

For all the listeners out there can you please give us, your simple definition about the drama cycle.

Well the drama cycle is something people tend to live in a lot when they’re stuck. So they are more in a cycle of responding and creating more emphasis on and focus on the things that they find upsetting or they find difficult or perhaps where there’s dialogue going on where they feel that there’s something that’s unjust or inappropriate going on.

So it is about the cycle that they’re within. And one of the components of this cycle. We’ve got to be oh well I’ve got a lovely diagram I’d like to share with you it’s one of my favorite things to work with with clients essentially here. What we have is the drama cycle. And so. Essentially no matter what’s going on in a drama cycle there’s usually the three components which is victim rescuer and persecutor.

Now the interesting thing about the drama cycle is that this isn’t just something that people can do with others. It’s something you can do with yourself so you can actually in any conversation that you have in your head, or any drama that you go in when you go from victim to rescue to persecute out with just yourself. 

Now if you then extend that out to other people that are in your arm it could be a partner. It could be the children and it could be your whole family. It could be a number of individuals or just one.

It could be a complete stranger. I mean this is what people do in traffic when they’re having you know a meltdown in the traffic which you know something they can’t control. And the other people around him can generally not control but people were doing this drama cycle all by themselves as if there’s people involved. All right. So you could put that down from a moment because it’s also shape. I can’t see very well. So if someone comes in and how do you determine that they’re in the victim’s space do they tell you. Do you notice that yourself.

To them. I think I think. Yeah I think it’s interesting because people kind of recognize it in themselves to some extent that they’re feeling victimized and when they’re expressing themselves it may camera across that way or may come across that they feel that there’s something going on that is out of their control and it’s being pushed upon them so that that’s generally how you would find something in the victim’s space. And what about someone who’s in the rescue are charismatic as well as you.

Well the thing is often people do have a responsibility really well. So they’ll feel that they’re responsible for things that are happening to other people even when it’s completely out of their control. They can feel like they’re rescuing somebody who needs to be rescued and that person doesn’t want to be rescued. So it can be a real bond for people were they trying to do something. And at the same time you know others may be sending that off that sort of behavior in the last part of that triangle is the persecutor.

Yes. People don’t often think of themselves as being the persecutor. I feel more that they’re the ones being persecuted. But having said that as you shift through the drama cycle you might go from all you know a victim state. This shouldn’t be happening to me. And then you might even go into the rescue and say Oh I’ll help you out of that. And then you might even within yourself say well you know you shouldn’t be doing this to yourself. It’s inappropriate. You know you know that this isn’t what you should do you silly thing.

And essentially they’re being persecuted to themselves or to others Yeah I agree with you there. And I think it’s really important that we explain to our clients what we observe and to see they’re on the same page if they can come to observe themselves in whatever role they’re in at that particular time. I can imagine that individuals shift from different job roles as we can call it a victim rescue on and persecutor what sort of healthy balance do you think Kerry.

Well I think not actually getting involved in any of those roles specifically and not taking things personally and being able to get yourself separated from the drama itself. So while you’re in a drama it’s very hard to think properly. It’s very easy to get overwhelmed. It’s very easy to overthink things and even to draw conclusions that aren’t necessarily appropriate for the situation.

So there’s a strategy that can be used and I like with my clients to give them an idea about what strategies they can use that can be beneficial for them. So when people are doing the drama cycle I’d like to bring up my little diagram again. So when I’m showing this to people it’s like well if you find yourself in a drama cycle at any point in time you could be doing that. Sorry for the day busy with the drama cycle. You could be doing that at any time in any way.

And one of the things that you can do to actually get out of the drama cycle is to just remove yourself from it by going into this …which is the observer space and the beauty of the observer space is that it actually gives you the opportunity to not be involved in any one one of those cycles. Parts of the cycle. And just to draw yourself out of it and to observe it.

And one of the key things that you can do when you go into the observer space is say that’s interesting an observation of the behaviors that are going on and observation of the patterns that are going on. Even an observation of the words that are being used and what what that actually means is that instead of being affected by them you observe and say oh that’s interesting. So even your own thoughts words anything that you’re using you can even look at yourself. That’s interesting. 

Asking yourself why you’re doing that you can say I can see how I’m doing that and you can remove yourself from that drama. That’s a key point. As you say that can I just add that realistically we often turn to a good friend or a professional so that they can be observer. And that’s when we what we’re calling upon is we say okay I’m emotionally aroused.

I can’t think clearly. Can you just let me know what you see of this situation. And so we turn to other resources whereas in fact what we’re teaching our clients is become your own resource. Step out of that cycle and you become the observer. So it’s actually part of our job is to teach clients how they can do this for themselves. That’s right. It’s a skill set.

So what we’re what we’re doing is as a strategic psychotherapist we look at scenarios and situations and we give people the skill sets and resources to not do that behavior that doesn’t work for them. So we always say you know what serves you what doesn’t serve you. So you know behaviors that continue a thought process or overwhelm or upset or anything like that it’s not really something you want to have in your day to day life.

And being able to have these skills and practice them and get some guidance and some coaching so that you get to do it as your way of doing things not just as an occasional way but as your way to go. I don’t have to suffer. I don’t have to sit in that thought process I can remove myself from it so I can observe it and get a strategy and know those steps is incredibly freeing for people and they become unstuck. Great point. 

We’ve got the drama cycle and then we’ve got the observer. Skills that we want to teach then is the bridge. Absolutely. What kind of things can our listeners discover that you and I and other hypnotherapist psychotherapists counselors can do can offer to give them these skills.

What would happen in session so that we can teach clients to access their own resource of becoming an observer and stepping out of the drama cycle that’s interesting that you say that because in a clinic we’re actually in a coaching mode as much as we are in a therapist mode and we help people to understand that you know this way of doing things will be successful in this way is not successful.

So with anything you know there’s a time when you don’t know what you don’t know. And then we take you through the point where you know that you don’t know something and know they’re going well how do I do that. And then you get to the point where it’s like well this is how you do it. But you need to learn your skills so you start to do it and you’ll do it again and you’ll do it again. Things that work for you things like not going into the drama cycle going to deserve a space.

And as you become more skilled at that you become very skilled and you don’t even have to think about doing it anymore. So it gives you that opportunity. Go through the process of learning. And one of the things that’s really interesting to me is that people are so serious these days and then you know giving themselves a very hard time because they think this is all very you know I must get this right that children learn through play and they learn really effectively through play so allow yourself the process of enjoying the process and playing with it and experimenting and just finding a new way that gives you a better pattern of behavior is really freeing for people and also makes it a lot more enjoyable as a process.

One way I want my clients to practice this bridging of skills to become an observer. It’s like you never quit teaching I’ll go off track but it’s a teachable moment for you now.

When we are teaching our clients to go away and practice the breathing or finding calmness we we suggest that they best do this when they’re in a state of calm so that unconscious mind can learn this automatically so that when they do experience panic or they start entering a panic they have practiced their breathing and finding calm so many times that automatically they can retrieve this skill because they’ve been practicing it whilst under calm conditions.

It’s no use for …doing something whilst on having a panic. What ….to teach me to do. She taught me to break like this. It’s no use then. Well it’s not as effective then. So we often instruct our clients go away in practice this way of thinking is fire breathing or this way of being but under calm conditions. So that’s all. It’s like rewiring of the brain so that she can learn this.

And the reason why I bring this up is to be an observer for I’d like to say to clients stop practicing being an observer whilst you’re not emotionally aroused and stuck inside a drama cycle because then when we don’t have all these heightened emotions we can think more logically so we can be better observers.

So some people can’t describe themselves as observers and that’s why it’s important they do this observe themselves when they’re having interactions with others and see how they feel when it comes to slight feelings of the victim or the rescuer or the persecutor.

In addition it’s also good to observe others we observe others and we can learn there to be an observer so that we can relay these observations filth onto ourselves so then we find later on or when we fall upon the situation that I’m getting into this drama cycle of encoding it how can I walk out and be an observer.

So what one of the beauties of doing the hypnosis with the clients doing the hypnotherapy is we did a psycho education during the process of the session so that you have a cognitive. Oh yeah. Okay I get it. I understand that they don’t necessarily know yet how to do it.

And I find that in the hypnosis component that we can actually take people into that practice mode where they can imagine themselves going through those steps where they can build up some process and some methodologies with guidance so that they can actually then utilize it more know in this certain kind of scenario I can get my comfort and my calmness to a level where I manage my situation in my environment internally so that affects my

ability to become an observer. 

To not become judgmental about things and being able to see things in a clear fashion and just to go even in that hypnotic process of just where we calm the chatter Where you’re able to hear the thoughts that you need to have that help you to practice that help you to imagine the process and just allow yourself to not have a lot chattering to really get the message and to really even in those moments practice what it is that you do that allows you to become an observer.

So I find that you know the whole strategic psychotherapy and the talking through things where we don’t have to go into the specific stories but we actually go into the process and we hope to people skill up those processes that are going to deliver that calm in those moments they need to and you know as you know the beauty of the hidden therapies the clients get that that time period they get that recording. So part of our homework you know everybody has to be involved in their own therapeutic process.

Part of that is to do their homework you know to to play that so that they can go into that state and practice those processes and practice that methodology so they can get it more and better before the next time they come to see us. And I find that people make a great deal of progress when they do the homework assigned to them. Absolutely. Or off notice that is what’s extremely effective.

And I’ll also add just to my own observations hypnotherapy is extremely effective in neutralizing that that victims say so when we enter of course like you said we do the psycho education and that all really one of my main reasons of doing this psycho education when it comes to the drama cycle is because I find people are not so flexible in their mindset.

At their first point in time when they experience that they’re in trouble. And so having a flexible mindset which introduces the concept of well opening up put perspectives different perceptions and interpretations for everybody’s role. If you think you’re the victim now let’s imagine the other person being the victim how could they perceive that.

And once we become creative with all these possibilities it’s just inevitable that you develop a flexible mindset at least for that conversation and that helps. We need to go to the hypnotherapy session because ultimately right 

at the end of the session the feedback that we’re looking for is I no longer feel like the victim.

So you’ve achieved more neutral scenario a more neutral interpretation and that’s healthier. And ultimately that makes the client feel much better. And these skills for you they’ve just gone through the experience of becoming an observer or doing psycho education improving a flexible mindset being creative and doing hypnotherapy so yes hypnotherapy is such a great modality too.

And of course you and I both trained in NLP and a lot of our language and techniques come from your own linguistic programming. And if we’re going to be effective. So I’d really like your diagram to it’s just such a sad one. One thing to explain to somebody is that this you know three different roles and you’ve got to move into the observer. But having it visually there for clients to actually see I think that’s a nice imprint in their mind minds so that way they can take that away. 

That can have a copy of that as well. Yes I actually send a photo to most clients that basically encompasses that so they can have it on their phone if they vote need to or ever want you they can just bring that guy that tells you that I get that I remember and it’s and it’s really important that you know when you’re learning anything new you just need to practice and practice until you get it right.

And part of our role is being you know your therapeutic coach so that you get new processes I mean you think about any athlete or any you know person who’s in the public eye and they have coaches they have people who help them to see where they’ve got things that they need to do when they put things in place that they go up be aware of this. He is that. And so that gives them a much better path forward where they do have more strategy and as they become more adept at doing things and they become more comfortable with doing things and then it just becomes the way that they do it then occasionally they might need a little bit of a tweak.

But at the end of the day most clients to come to says will save us I suppose is you know I have this thing that I recognized as an issue I don’t know yet how to get past it how do I get rid of these obstacles how do I navigate my way through this new way of thinking and being. And that’s our role and that’s where the beauty is because we actually help people to find their resources put those together with their skills can get great outcomes pretty pretty quickly too.

Fast. Yeah. So I hope that today’s episode has given our listeners a bit of an insight into how his hypnotherapy and you know he can be useful in the drama cycle. I think we’ve made it quite clear that it’s it’s quite simple even they can really complicate people’s lives and make them feel stuck to get unstuck. He says simple as wanting to get unstuck and seeking the right therapist and the right modality for you.

Absolutely. I really believe that hypnotherapy is very fast and very effective. Once the client is committed. And wanting to make that change do you have any formal words for us. KERRY I suppose the whole thing is that you’re right. Find the right coach find the right therapist somebody who work for you. It may be one of us. It may be somebody else but essentially if you are stuck.

The most important thing to do is to find the way to be unstuck so that you’re not suffering anymore because there’s no point to suffering. You know it’s all about enjoying life and doing the things with people we want to do as you need to do them and want to do them. So my main message is don’t stay stuck get the assistance you need. Kerry thank you so much for coming on today. Your education is always so much appreciated.

I love speaking to you. Thank you. Anybody who wants to get in contact with Kerry like I told you right at the beginning of this episode. www.sydneyhypno.com.au. You’ve been listening to Kerry and Amanda. See you next time. Thank you for listening. 

Thanks Amanda. Bye.

Click here to listen to the importance of gaining emotional support at the onset of separation

Amanda Dounis

Positive Thinking Clinic

1/7 Magdalene Terrace

Wolli Creek, 2205

0458 850 850



It is important to know that resources are available if you are experiencing anxiety , and exploring other websites, such as mindaustralia, and headspace.  

I welcome you to visit my podcast to learn about anxiety basics.

In any emergency you can always reach out to lifeline.

Help is also available for kids, and support for families too.

You may find my Coping Skills Handbook a great resource.  It teaches kids how to cope with everyday challenges using a simple C.O.P.E. formula.

You can find out more about me on natural therapy pages or psychology today

I am a level 3 member of the Australian Counselling Association and am a member of the Hypnotherapy Council of Australia

Here is a short clip on FAQ at Positive Thinking Clinic https://youtu.be/GNWaRVsC-OU

Ways that Positive Thinking Clinic can help you https://youtu.be/m0z-f0PSQNM

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